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welcome to tales from the rabbit hole

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I'm your host Nick West my guest today

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is I believe my fourth professor on the

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podcast and I think by far the most

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distinguished one professor Elizabeth

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Loftus is the professor of psychological

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science and criminology and a professor

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of law and society and the professor of

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cognitive sciences so our professor

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Loftus welcome to tales from the rabbit

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hole thank you thank you very much for

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doing this

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it's I've been a big fan of yours for

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quite some time I think I first saw you

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at the amazing meeting the James Randi

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Educational Foundation

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in 2014 I believe was the first time I

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saw you and then I saw you again at CSI

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Con in 2016 and you appeared again this

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year CSI icon in Las Vegas for the CSI

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con 2019 how did you get involved in

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doing things for the skeptical community

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I think I was invited to give some talks

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when I was teaching at my former

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University I started talking about you

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know memory distortion and false

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memories and and then the organization

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gave me some nice award and and then I

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got put on on the board of advisers or

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whatever they they call this board and

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so it's just a community that I've spent

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a lot of time with yeah and I think it

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really speaks for the quality of your

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work because it's a topic that's very

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very interesting to kind of the

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skeptical community because skeptical

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community is all about demanding

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evidence for for extreme claims and

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obviously one of the claims that people

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bring up all the time is that they

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remember something happening and what

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your work over the years has shown is

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that memory isn't quite as reliable as

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people think it is

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can you what's what's the most most

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famous example of your work where where

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you have done something with that really

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demonstrates the memory is not quite as

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most people think it is there are really

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kind of two sub categories of memory

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problem that that I've been

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investigating and of course many people

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understand that you could have a problem

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with forgetting that is not remembering

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something that actually happened but but

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I study the opposite which is when

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people remember things differently from

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the way they really were or when they

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remember entire events that did not

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happen to them and so you know some of

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the well-known examples in my research

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are examples where people remember

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differently we make people believe and

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remember that that the car involved in

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the accident went through a stop sign

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instead of a yield sign well there

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really was an accident but but the car

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did not go through the stop sign so

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that's an example and it's a fairly well

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known example of changing memory for the

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details of an event that actually

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happened but but then years later we

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would ask just how far can you go with

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people and we would plant entirely false

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memories into the minds of otherwise

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ordinary healthy people and one of the

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better known examples is our first

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effort to do this which is to make

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people believe and remember that when

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they were say five or six years old they

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were lost in a shopping mall frightened

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crying and ultimately rescued by an

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elderly person and reunited with their

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family so that's another example of an

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experimental finding that did achieve

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you know a fair amount of publicity and

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interest yeah that's a very well-known

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one I think and that comes up a lot to

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the I use that constantly as an example

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of of an implanted memory with with

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implanted memories you you're kind of

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creating a whole narrative that you give

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to someone do you give them the entire

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narrative or do they fill in a lot of

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the pieces themselves no we just give

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them a little

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paragraphs worth so if you were one of

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my subjects I would say to you Mick you

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know we've had a conversation with your

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mother we found out some things that

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happened to you when you were about five

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or six years old we'd like to ask you

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about these experiences see if you

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remember any of them and then I would

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give you some little scenarios about

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true events things your mother told us

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really did happen and then I'd give you

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a little bit of a paragraph of about a

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completely made-up event that that I

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made up with your mother about getting

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lost in a shopping mall or if you grew

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up and there were no malls then in some

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big public place and we try to get you

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to remember these experiences and people

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will not only regurgitate back the

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specific details that we use to plant

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the memory but they'll go beyond and

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they'll tell us things about what the

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person looked like who rescued them or

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other things they remember about the

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event III remember hearing my name being

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called over the loudspeaker some example

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like that detail like that that we never

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mentioned so when you're implanting

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these memories or triggering these these

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creations of false memories obviously it

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doesn't happen straight away he can't

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just like tell someone and they

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immediately remember it you kind of

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plant a seed and then come back later

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and it's kind of grown into something

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else that's often what happens yes they

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sometimes they start out gee I'm I'm not

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sure possibly maybe would it have been a

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you know at this location then they try

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to figure it out and then we do come

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back we might talk to them three times

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for example in our original study we

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found that about a quarter of our

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subjects fell swea to this suggestion

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and began to develop a partial or

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complete false memory about getting lost

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but I do have to say that other

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scientists who picked up on this

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paradigm and plan

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other kinds of false memories we're

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getting really good at it because they

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got even higher rates of false memories

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than we did

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so other certain people who are a lot

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more susceptible to this than other

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people we and others have looked at

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individual differences and we we have

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found things like if you're if you're

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someone who has lapses in memory and

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attention if you frequently find that

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you can't remember whether you did

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something or just thought about doing it

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did I mail that letter or did I just

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think about it did I close the garage

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door or I just think about it you're

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somewhat more susceptible if you are low

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and cognitive ability you're somewhat

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more susceptible but I do have to say

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that we have even studied people who

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have exceptional memories superior

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memories about their own lives and they

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to a fall for these suggestions and

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develop false memories at a rate that's

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similar to ordinary people yeah it's

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interesting because I was doing a little

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research before before I spoke to you

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yesterday and I came across a TED talk

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by a guy called Scott Fraser and he he

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was talking about near the same type of

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subjects and he gave me an example of

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9/11 the collapses of the World Trade

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Center and he says that he had this very

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vivid memory of of the second tower

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collapse being shown over and over again

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on television but then he said that was

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a false memory because there wasn't any

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footage of that until the next day till

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24 hours later however it turns out

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there actually was and it turns out that

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what he was remembering in his TED talk

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was actually a false memory that somehow

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he's convinced himself off and he didn't

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actually realize this until later and he

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had to issue a correction to this so you

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got someone who's an expert in memory

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who knows about all these things and

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still manages to get fooled by it

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oh yeah well on just because your study

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memory doesn't mean you can be immune

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from these kinds of influences yeah you

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tell people you're an expert in memory -

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do they assume that then you personally

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have a very good memory do they ask you

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to do memory tricks and things like that

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usually they want to first they want to

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tell me that they've got a relative with

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Alzheimer's or somebody who has got some

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kind of dementia and can I give them

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some advice for how to deal with their

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relative that's that's how it often

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starts in an airplane conversation and I

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have to say you know I don't study that

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kind of memory problem I study the

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opposite yeah and false memories

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obviously have a huge implication for

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for trials for for the legal issues and

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you've you've been called as an expert

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witness many times what were the types

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of things that you you tell a jury when

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you're appearing as an expert witness

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well there are two types of cases that I

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have been involved in quite a bit one

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would be a typical eyewitness case we

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call it so somebody is a witness to an

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armed robbery and sometime later maybe

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goes to a lineup and tries to identify

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the person who committed that robbery so

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I might talk about the factors in that

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situation if they exist that could lead

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to difficulties for an accurate memory

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how much time passed between the crime

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and the attempt at identifying the

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perpetrator because if it's a longer

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period of time there's going to be a

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fading of memory also if there's a

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longer period of time the memory is more

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susceptible to contamination then I

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might want to know are you dealing with

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a cross-racial identification do you

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have a situation where a person is

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trying to identify a stranger of a

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different race than their own race

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people make more mistakes then I want to

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analyze and know about the

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characteristics of the lineup who was in

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the lineup who were the filler

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did they resemble the perpetrator what

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kind of instruction was given to the

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witness before the identification was

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made these are amongst the many factors

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that are important to consider because

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if you have a biased situation with a

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lot of problematic factors then you have

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a situation that might be more prone to

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error yeah and the third law so many

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factors that you have to take into

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account there and also be very difficult

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to kind of get all this across to a jury

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I mean it's you know it's something that

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you've been studying for there many many

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years and you can have asked to boil it

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down into a few examples do you have

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good success do you think in

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communicating these things to to jurors

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I think I have a way of talking about

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the basic concepts that is

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understandable to you know lay people

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sometimes I have a little bit of

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difficulty for example if I want it if I

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want to tell the jury that the

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correlation between say how accurate

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somebody is and their confidence level I

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know the correlation is 0.25 for example

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in one well-known paper how do you

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explain a correlation of 0.25 to a jury

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that has never taken a statistics course

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so occasionally there challenges like

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that needing to explain some kind of

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mathematical or scientific concept but

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for the most part I think people can

277
00:12:49,829 --> 00:12:47,329
understand many of the the basic

278
00:12:54,699 --> 00:12:49,839
concepts that I and other memory

279
00:12:57,880 --> 00:12:54,709
scientists try to convey during a jury

280
00:12:59,290 --> 00:12:57,890
trial yeah that correlation you bring is

281
00:13:03,280 --> 00:12:59,300
very interesting the correlation between

282
00:13:05,380 --> 00:13:03,290
confidence and the accuracy of a memory

283
00:13:06,670 --> 00:13:05,390
and people tend to assume that if

284
00:13:08,319 --> 00:13:06,680
someone like say something with

285
00:13:10,269 --> 00:13:08,329
confidence then they're more likely to

286
00:13:13,630 --> 00:13:10,279
be accurate but it turns out there isn't

287
00:13:17,610 --> 00:13:13,640
you know that much that much evidence

288
00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:18,960
Rivera's gotten a little more

289
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:21,490
complicated because for years people

290
00:13:25,410 --> 00:13:23,290
talked about that that one particular

291
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:25,420
paper with the correlation that I

292
00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:29,050
mentioned and in recent times there is a

293
00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:32,050
kind of a revaluation about the

294
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:35,200
importance of confidence where if

295
00:13:41,190 --> 00:13:37,810
everything is ideal if the conditions

296
00:13:45,860 --> 00:13:41,200
are pristine and clean then confidence

297
00:13:48,450 --> 00:13:45,870
does seem to correlate with accuracy

298
00:13:50,850 --> 00:13:48,460
somebody who's confident more likely to

299
00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:50,860
be accurate than somebody who's not the

300
00:13:55,530 --> 00:13:52,720
problem is out there in the messy real

301
00:13:59,070 --> 00:13:55,540
world things are not clean and pristine

302
00:14:02,550 --> 00:13:59,080
and you can manipulate somebody's

303
00:14:05,250 --> 00:14:02,560
confidence it's very easy to do that

304
00:14:07,380 --> 00:14:05,260
yeah I remember I had an incident where

305
00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:07,390
somebody jumped into my yard like a

306
00:14:11,220 --> 00:14:09,310
burglar was getting away from a house

307
00:14:12,630 --> 00:14:11,230
next door and he ran through my yard and

308
00:14:15,870 --> 00:14:12,640
I called the police and then they asked

309
00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:15,880
me to describe this person to him and I

310
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:17,950
kind of actually thought back to your

311
00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:21,610
talk and how difficult it is to have

312
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:23,110
accurate memories about these types of

313
00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:24,970
things and I I kind of wanted to say

314
00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:26,860
something but I thought do I really know

315
00:14:31,050 --> 00:14:29,440
that yeah so you have actually had an

316
00:14:32,910 --> 00:14:31,060
effect very and perhaps not fingering

317
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:32,920
the wrong person for this burglary of my

318
00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:35,920
neighbor's house but yes it is

319
00:14:41,610 --> 00:14:37,720
surprisingly difficult to remember

320
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:41,620
things about people for for me like in a

321
00:14:44,940 --> 00:14:43,600
stressful situation like I couldn't

322
00:14:46,829 --> 00:14:44,950
remember what color shirt he was wearing

323
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:46,839
or what color pants he was wearing or

324
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:50,410
even how especially tall he was so I

325
00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:53,170
think perhaps people people overestimate

326
00:15:00,090 --> 00:14:56,850
their ability to to remember things I

327
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:00,100
don't know about the overestimation um

328
00:15:05,490 --> 00:15:02,770
you know I often times when you ask

329
00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:05,500
people you know about characteristics or

330
00:15:11,910 --> 00:15:08,950
even you know how healthy are you or how

331
00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:11,920
smart are you or whatever they that lots

332
00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:13,570
of people lots and lots of people think

333
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:15,310
they're above average more people think

334
00:15:22,140 --> 00:15:16,570
they're above average than is

335
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:22,150
statistically impossible but well but we

336
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:24,370
do know a fair amount about the factors

337
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:26,079
that can lead to mistakes and your

338
00:15:31,730 --> 00:15:29,490
experience of trying to describe is

339
00:15:35,340 --> 00:15:31,740
especially difficult

340
00:15:38,610 --> 00:15:35,350
yeah line up and trying to identify the

341
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:38,620
face you've seen before well in some

342
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:41,680
sense that's a little easier but you can

343
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:44,399
also be misled if it's not done properly

344
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:46,690
indeed yeah I'm not sure I wouldn't be

345
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:48,250
able to pick the person hey I did see

346
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:49,810
his face he turned around to look at me

347
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:52,959
as he was running away yeah it's I'm not

348
00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:54,310
sure I would be able to pick him out so

349
00:15:57,389 --> 00:15:55,510
I would feel very uncomfortable you know

350
00:15:58,650 --> 00:15:57,399
especially after you know hearing all

351
00:16:01,590 --> 00:15:58,660
these stories about people means

352
00:16:04,019 --> 00:16:01,600
identifying other people I want to talk

353
00:16:05,430 --> 00:16:04,029
a little bit about the you know some of

354
00:16:08,340 --> 00:16:05,440
those topics that I'm interested in are

355
00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:08,350
kind of conspiracy theory topics a big

356
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:12,639
one is UFOs which is a conspiracy theory

357
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:14,050
in a way because people are saying the

358
00:16:19,259 --> 00:16:17,050
government is is covering up UFOs but a

359
00:16:20,730 --> 00:16:19,269
lot of people who believe that there are

360
00:16:23,550 --> 00:16:20,740
UFOs and that the government is covering

361
00:16:25,139 --> 00:16:23,560
it up they do so because of a personal

362
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:25,149
experience

363
00:16:31,949 --> 00:16:28,690
they think that they saw a UFO and they

364
00:16:34,110 --> 00:16:31,959
give these very detailed reports of

365
00:16:36,740 --> 00:16:34,120
seeing a particular type of craft or

366
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:36,750
something like that do you think that

367
00:16:42,509 --> 00:16:38,560
what do you think the role of false

368
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:42,519
memory is in UFOs what I know a little

369
00:16:48,269 --> 00:16:45,730
about primarily because of the work of

370
00:16:52,439 --> 00:16:48,279
Richard McNally a professor of

371
00:16:54,569 --> 00:16:52,449
psychology at Harvard is the group of

372
00:16:57,900 --> 00:16:54,579
people who go even further than I just

373
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:57,910
saw something up in the sky they believe

374
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:00,160
that they were actually abducted by

375
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:02,410
aliens and taken up on the spaceships

376
00:17:07,819 --> 00:17:05,530
and sexually experimented upon and then

377
00:17:10,260 --> 00:17:07,829
brought back to their beds on earth and

378
00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:10,270
they're a very interesting group of

379
00:17:19,250 --> 00:17:14,470
people they are often intelligent and

380
00:17:23,460 --> 00:17:19,260
highly functioning in society they often

381
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:23,470
it starts with an experience of sleep

382
00:17:28,559 --> 00:17:26,290
paralysis where when you're in that

383
00:17:31,590 --> 00:17:28,569
in-between state between you know

384
00:17:34,049 --> 00:17:31,600
sleeping and waking up you sometimes

385
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:34,059
experience a kind of paralysis and it

386
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:35,770
can be kind of frightening if you don't

387
00:17:41,730 --> 00:17:38,650
know what it is they end up talking to a

388
00:17:44,260 --> 00:17:41,740
therapist who maybe believes an alien

389
00:17:46,780 --> 00:17:44,270
abduction and might hypnotized them and

390
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:46,790
just certain things to them but they now

391
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:49,010
have a whole abduction scenario that

392
00:17:54,090 --> 00:17:50,450
they think happened to them

393
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:54,100
and when dr. McNally has studied these

394
00:17:59,740 --> 00:17:57,440
individuals at Harvard he finds that

395
00:18:01,780 --> 00:17:59,750
when they listen to their own abduction

396
00:18:05,260 --> 00:18:01,790
story played back to them on a tape

397
00:18:07,180 --> 00:18:05,270
recorder they're highly aroused the

398
00:18:10,210 --> 00:18:07,190
physiological measures like heart rate

399
00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:10,220
and so on are taken and they are as

400
00:18:17,860 --> 00:18:14,590
aroused as other people might be about a

401
00:18:21,580 --> 00:18:17,870
truly traumatic experience so they're a

402
00:18:24,460 --> 00:18:21,590
very interesting group of people now the

403
00:18:26,430 --> 00:18:24,470
ones who are just seeing unidentified

404
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:26,440
objects and not believing they were

405
00:18:33,820 --> 00:18:29,570
abducted I mean that seems to me like an

406
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:33,830
even easier thing to explain they may

407
00:18:38,290 --> 00:18:35,930
have seen something and then time passes

408
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:38,300
they reconstruct a story about what it

409
00:18:46,330 --> 00:18:43,250
what it is and and their story has a lot

410
00:18:49,260 --> 00:18:46,340
of inferences and that crystallize and

411
00:18:51,810 --> 00:18:49,270
feel like memories they're they're

412
00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:51,820
potentially creating that story or

413
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:55,910
distorting from an ambiguous stimulus

414
00:19:03,340 --> 00:19:01,520
into something that's more UFO like yeah

415
00:19:04,990 --> 00:19:03,350
and I think a lot of the people I talk

416
00:19:06,490 --> 00:19:05,000
to who have the most passion about it

417
00:19:08,740 --> 00:19:06,500
the things that happened to them

418
00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:08,750
happened quite a long time ago like five

419
00:19:15,010 --> 00:19:11,990
or ten years ago and so over time they

420
00:19:18,850 --> 00:19:15,020
kind of layer on like more details in

421
00:19:21,790 --> 00:19:18,860
their memories that can happen and if

422
00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:21,800
they are attending conferences where

423
00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:24,110
their other which might happen where

424
00:19:28,210 --> 00:19:25,370
there are other people talking about

425
00:19:30,940 --> 00:19:28,220
their experiences that that can be a

426
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:30,950
source of influence that affects the

427
00:19:37,750 --> 00:19:33,410
reconstruction of any one individuals

428
00:19:39,910 --> 00:19:37,760
personal story yeah and they're very

429
00:19:41,950 --> 00:19:39,920
passionate about the subject and they're

430
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:41,960
very defensive when it comes to me

431
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:43,010
questioning things like did you really

432
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:45,410
remember this this this thing happening

433
00:19:50,770 --> 00:19:48,530
now you know you talks you a lot of a

434
00:19:53,380 --> 00:19:50,780
lot of juries about this type of subject

435
00:19:56,290 --> 00:19:53,390
but do you actually have you ever

436
00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:56,300
experimented with trying to fight its

437
00:19:58,180 --> 00:19:57,770
policy fight somebody's memory try to

438
00:20:01,480 --> 00:19:58,190
convince

439
00:20:03,090 --> 00:20:01,490
somebody that they didn't have this this

440
00:20:05,710 --> 00:20:03,100
this event happened to them

441
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:05,720
not with a group of people that you are

442
00:20:09,850 --> 00:20:07,730
interested in but this is in our

443
00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:09,860
experiments this is exactly what we have

444
00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:12,110
to do we've taken people through a

445
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:14,720
process where we've successfully planted

446
00:20:20,619 --> 00:20:17,330
a false memory and now at the end of the

447
00:20:23,049 --> 00:20:20,629
experiment we have to convince debrief

448
00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:23,059
them and tell them guess what we

449
00:20:28,450 --> 00:20:26,809
deceived you and you weren't really lost

450
00:20:31,749 --> 00:20:28,460
in the mall or you weren't really

451
00:20:33,909 --> 00:20:31,759
attacked by an animal or you didn't

452
00:20:39,190 --> 00:20:33,919
really almost drown and have to be

453
00:20:40,930 --> 00:20:39,200
rescued and so we that's what debriefing

454
00:20:44,019 --> 00:20:40,940
at the end of an experiment is all about

455
00:20:47,019 --> 00:20:44,029
trying to convince somebody that the

456
00:20:49,899 --> 00:20:47,029
memory that we helped them create is not

457
00:20:53,409 --> 00:20:49,909
real and of course most people accept

458
00:20:55,889 --> 00:20:53,419
that information you know that they're

459
00:20:59,980 --> 00:20:55,899
often fascinated by the whole process

460
00:21:02,289 --> 00:20:59,990
and then they leave the experiment yeah

461
00:21:05,049 --> 00:21:02,299
I have almost admit I had very little

462
00:21:06,430 --> 00:21:05,059
luck doing that with people who you know

463
00:21:07,930 --> 00:21:06,440
I didn't implant false memories in them

464
00:21:10,210 --> 00:21:07,940
of course they actually have some kind

465
00:21:13,629 --> 00:21:10,220
of experience years ago that has evolved

466
00:21:15,190 --> 00:21:13,639
into this memory and if I try to

467
00:21:17,049 --> 00:21:15,200
question us at all they get very very

468
00:21:18,940 --> 00:21:17,059
defensive and say it's you know I know

469
00:21:21,310 --> 00:21:18,950
what I saw I think the most common thing

470
00:21:23,379 --> 00:21:21,320
that they tell me this is something that

471
00:21:26,409 --> 00:21:23,389
happens with another conspiracy theory

472
00:21:28,149 --> 00:21:26,419
the the chemtrails conspiracy theory I

473
00:21:30,490 --> 00:21:28,159
don't if you familiar with chemtrails

474
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:30,500
it's the idea that these the the

475
00:21:33,820 --> 00:21:32,090
condensation trails the white lines

476
00:21:35,950 --> 00:21:33,830
behind planes are some kind of

477
00:21:38,350 --> 00:21:35,960
deliberate spraying by by the government

478
00:21:40,419 --> 00:21:38,360
it's a surprisingly common conspiracy

479
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:40,429
theory like you know those millions of

480
00:21:45,340 --> 00:21:43,730
people give it some credence but when

481
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:45,350
memory comes into play here is that

482
00:21:50,499 --> 00:21:47,360
people say they don't remember these

483
00:21:52,539 --> 00:21:50,509
lines behind planes ever persisting

484
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:52,549
because they think they're normally they

485
00:21:57,310 --> 00:21:55,129
let the flame flies by and then the

486
00:21:59,230 --> 00:21:57,320
trail just evaporates in a few a few

487
00:22:00,820 --> 00:21:59,240
seconds or a few minutes when what

488
00:22:02,529 --> 00:22:00,830
actually happens is sometimes if the

489
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:02,539
atmospheric conditions are right you can

490
00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:04,730
spread out into a cloud and sometimes

491
00:22:09,070 --> 00:22:06,740
like a whole bunch of them can can join

492
00:22:11,499 --> 00:22:09,080
together and cover the sky and they

493
00:22:13,210 --> 00:22:11,509
claim they never remember seeing this

494
00:22:15,340 --> 00:22:13,220
before

495
00:22:17,020 --> 00:22:15,350
and I think you know what it is it's

496
00:22:19,210 --> 00:22:17,030
just they were never paying attention to

497
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:19,220
it before and then they do pay attention

498
00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:21,650
to it and it's something that they just

499
00:22:26,860 --> 00:22:24,470
haven't noticed but since it's there in

500
00:22:28,510 --> 00:22:26,870
the sky all the time how can people you

501
00:22:30,550 --> 00:22:28,520
know how can you convey to people that

502
00:22:32,410 --> 00:22:30,560
they just haven't noticed it for twenty

503
00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:32,420
years and then they just notice it one

504
00:22:37,630 --> 00:22:33,710
day even though it was there all the

505
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:37,640
time well I worked on a few cases where

506
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:40,370
the key issue is why did somebody not

507
00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:42,170
notice something that seemed very

508
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:46,880
obvious not your thing but why did some

509
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:50,170
why did a police officer not notice when

510
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:53,600
somebody was fighting over here and if

511
00:22:59,350 --> 00:22:56,570
you're paying attention over here in a

512
00:23:01,150 --> 00:22:59,360
different location and you can be paying

513
00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:01,160
attention to something even that's

514
00:23:06,820 --> 00:23:03,710
rather innocuous you can miss something

515
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:06,830
very obvious and the best demonstration

516
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:10,130
of that I think is that you know about

517
00:23:16,060 --> 00:23:13,730
the invisible gorilla I do oh you're

518
00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:16,070
you're watching and you you're supposed

519
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:18,710
to be counting the passes of the players

520
00:23:23,980 --> 00:23:20,690
with the white shirts and you missive a

521
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:23,990
big black gorilla that walks right

522
00:23:30,570 --> 00:23:26,210
through the center of the basketball

523
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:30,580
game that is a perfect example of how

524
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:33,890
inattentional blindness as as we call it

525
00:23:38,530 --> 00:23:36,530
mmm but you can if you're not paying

526
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:38,540
attention and you're concentrating on

527
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:41,330
something else you can miss a whole lot

528
00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:44,450
of things yes that's a great example I

529
00:23:48,130 --> 00:23:46,670
loved that when I I was sad that I

530
00:23:50,140 --> 00:23:48,140
didn't actually work on me the first

531
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:50,150
time because I had someone that you got

532
00:23:54,460 --> 00:23:52,010
told me like there's a gorilla that I

533
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:54,470
missed out on the experience but I can

534
00:24:02,560 --> 00:23:57,610
totally see it happening well I

535
00:24:05,770 --> 00:24:02,570
experienced you because I saw a talk

536
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:05,780
last summer by one of the I went to a

537
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:08,210
conference last summer on the psychology

538
00:24:12,610 --> 00:24:10,240
of magic and they brought together

539
00:24:15,010 --> 00:24:12,620
cognitive psychologists like me and

540
00:24:17,860 --> 00:24:15,020
magicians to share our experiences and

541
00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:17,870
learn from each other and one of the

542
00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:20,590
inventors of the invisible gorilla

543
00:24:27,630 --> 00:24:25,360
started his talk and you see and

544
00:24:29,940 --> 00:24:27,640
see these players playing back throwing

545
00:24:31,650 --> 00:24:29,950
the ball back and forth and I thought to

546
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:31,660
myself this is not gonna work everybody

547
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:33,490
knows about the invisible gorilla

548
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:35,410
they're gonna see the gorilla just as

549
00:24:42,539 --> 00:24:39,490
you did but the surprise is something

550
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:42,549
else changed so there you are looking at

551
00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:45,130
the gorilla because you know about it

552
00:24:51,870 --> 00:24:49,120
and the curtain behind these players

553
00:24:54,270 --> 00:24:51,880
changes colors and a big lion appears on

554
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:54,280
the curtain and people don't notice so

555
00:24:59,340 --> 00:24:56,530
you'll be tricked into having the

556
00:25:01,380 --> 00:24:59,350
experience in some other way it is quite

557
00:25:02,820 --> 00:25:01,390
amazing how you can miss things like

558
00:25:04,710 --> 00:25:02,830
this there's another example I think was

559
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:04,720
a guy giving doing a card trick on a

560
00:25:10,110 --> 00:25:07,210
table and he's saying you know to try to

561
00:25:12,450 --> 00:25:10,120
spot the trick and he he he changes the

562
00:25:14,250 --> 00:25:12,460
color of his shirt three times during

563
00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:14,260
the demonstration but you don't notice

564
00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:15,910
that because you're focusing on on the

565
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:18,400
cards so yeah there it is very dramatic

566
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:21,850
examples do you think there's have you

567
00:25:25,020 --> 00:25:23,530
found it useful to show examples like

568
00:25:27,470 --> 00:25:25,030
this to people and say look how you can

569
00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:27,480
be tricked and maybe you've been tricked

570
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:31,270
well in the case I was testifying on

571
00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:34,570
behalf of an officer who was being

572
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:36,910
reprimanded and potentially losing his

573
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:39,910
job because he failed to report a fight

574
00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:42,490
that he people thought he should have

575
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:47,049
seen and reported and his defense was

576
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:49,210
that look I was concentrating over he

577
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:52,450
over here that's why I didn't notice it

578
00:26:00,180 --> 00:25:55,330
didn't report it and we actually showed

579
00:26:03,090 --> 00:26:00,190
the gorilla tape to the judge who then

580
00:26:05,549 --> 00:26:03,100
acquitted this officer really

581
00:26:07,650 --> 00:26:05,559
that's quite a quite amazing yeah it's

582
00:26:09,690 --> 00:26:07,660
it's sometimes difficult to get people

583
00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:09,700
to watch things you know the people I

584
00:26:13,650 --> 00:26:12,220
deal with a more conspiracy mindless or

585
00:26:16,169 --> 00:26:13,660
they're very suspicious of me they think

586
00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:16,179
that I'm trying to brainwash them and so

587
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:18,640
when I question things like their memory

588
00:26:23,190 --> 00:26:21,010
they think this I'm trying to somehow

589
00:26:25,289 --> 00:26:23,200
get inside their brain and mess with

590
00:26:27,690 --> 00:26:25,299
them so I think the more kind of mutual

591
00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:27,700
things that I can give them to give give

592
00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:30,640
examples the better well here's a

593
00:26:35,549 --> 00:26:32,710
thought for you

594
00:26:38,460 --> 00:26:35,559
on this issue that you're talking about

595
00:26:41,789 --> 00:26:38,470
here of not being able to

596
00:26:44,909 --> 00:26:41,799
persuade these believers not being able

597
00:26:46,769 --> 00:26:44,919
to budge them in fact we could just

598
00:26:49,139 --> 00:26:46,779
brainstorm about this other experience

599
00:26:52,409 --> 00:26:49,149
that I've had I have been for a long

600
00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:52,419
time working on these cases where let's

601
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:54,940
say a woman goes to a therapist she's

602
00:27:00,029 --> 00:26:57,850
got an eating disorder she's depressed

603
00:27:01,590 --> 00:27:00,039
and the therapist says you know everyone

604
00:27:03,509 --> 00:27:01,600
I've seen with those symptoms was

605
00:27:05,249 --> 00:27:03,519
sexually abused as a child maybe

606
00:27:08,269 --> 00:27:05,259
something like that happened to you and

607
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:08,279
there begins this suggestive process

608
00:27:13,259 --> 00:27:10,690
well let's just close your eyes and

609
00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:13,269
imagine who might have done this and the

610
00:27:21,529 --> 00:27:17,049
woman is led to to believe and think and

611
00:27:26,190 --> 00:27:21,539
even remember extensive brutalization

612
00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:26,200
and then accuse family members ruin the

613
00:27:33,379 --> 00:27:29,769
whole family dynamic create a mess of a

614
00:27:35,759 --> 00:27:33,389
situation there and at some point

615
00:27:39,629 --> 00:27:35,769
hundreds of there thousands of these

616
00:27:41,580 --> 00:27:39,639
cases but hundreds of these people have

617
00:27:44,639 --> 00:27:41,590
started to realize their memories are

618
00:27:47,129 --> 00:27:44,649
false so how does that happen they call

619
00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:47,139
themselves to retractors how does that

620
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:49,529
happen well one thing that happens is

621
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:52,690
their health insurance runs out so they

622
00:27:57,389 --> 00:27:55,360
can no longer go every week to see the

623
00:28:00,810 --> 00:27:57,399
therapist that is propping up this

624
00:28:03,570 --> 00:28:00,820
belief system but short of that

625
00:28:06,509 --> 00:28:03,580
sometimes they'll see other people on TV

626
00:28:08,549 --> 00:28:06,519
for example talking about how they went

627
00:28:11,129 --> 00:28:08,559
through this suggestive therapy process

628
00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:11,139
and now realize what it did to them and

629
00:28:17,460 --> 00:28:14,710
they'll start to identify with another

630
00:28:20,129 --> 00:28:17,470
retractor and I don't know whether

631
00:28:21,539 --> 00:28:20,139
there's anything you can learn by taking

632
00:28:23,580 --> 00:28:21,549
a look at some of the studies of

633
00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:23,590
retractors and how do they get to that

634
00:28:29,310 --> 00:28:25,840
point and think about whether there's

635
00:28:31,409 --> 00:28:29,320
any I mean anything yeah I mean you can

636
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:31,419
do you can't take these people out of

637
00:28:36,419 --> 00:28:34,690
their support group yeah they're

638
00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:36,429
probably not gonna let you do that but

639
00:28:41,249 --> 00:28:38,080
maybe there are some other things you

640
00:28:42,690 --> 00:28:41,259
can learn from the retractors that's

641
00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:42,700
very interesting I never heard the term

642
00:28:47,580 --> 00:28:45,190
retractor before as a group so

643
00:28:50,279 --> 00:28:47,590
interesting to kind of see and watch

644
00:28:51,290 --> 00:28:50,289
what the common factors are there I do

645
00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:51,300
know that

646
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:54,270
being exposed to people like conspiracy

647
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:56,490
theorists being exposed to people who

648
00:29:00,980 --> 00:28:58,410
were once conspiracy theorists and now

649
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:00,990
are not is very useful in giving them

650
00:29:05,930 --> 00:29:03,450
some perspective but it takes a long

651
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:05,940
time for them to come around but what

652
00:29:09,020 --> 00:29:07,440
we're talking about with people

653
00:29:10,820 --> 00:29:09,030
realizing their memories might be faulty

654
00:29:13,370 --> 00:29:10,830
seems very very similar to people

655
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:13,380
realizing their conspiracy beliefs might

656
00:29:17,050 --> 00:29:15,120
be faulty the way they kind of get out

657
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:17,060
there escaping the rabbit hole of

658
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:20,250
conspiracy beliefs it's kind of seems

659
00:29:26,570 --> 00:29:22,410
like there might be some quite strong

660
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:26,580
parallels there with the right and so

661
00:29:31,460 --> 00:29:29,010
the the lesson for you maybe is maybe

662
00:29:35,180 --> 00:29:31,470
you should have some of these former

663
00:29:39,380 --> 00:29:35,190
believers on your on your program yeah I

664
00:29:41,990 --> 00:29:39,390
did idea maybe get some of your your

665
00:29:43,490 --> 00:29:42,000
podcast friends to interview them

666
00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:43,500
because you're yeah because you know

667
00:29:47,870 --> 00:29:46,110
yeah they're you know the believers are

668
00:29:50,810 --> 00:29:47,880
suspicious of you they might not listen

669
00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:50,820
all the way through but you know just if

670
00:29:57,890 --> 00:29:52,860
you want to showcase and feature some of

671
00:30:00,710 --> 00:29:57,900
these former believers and yeah that may

672
00:30:02,390 --> 00:30:00,720
be a way to get somewhere yeah I do

673
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:02,400
actually try to do that and I've had a

674
00:30:09,830 --> 00:30:04,410
few people on the show who believe in in

675
00:30:11,570 --> 00:30:09,840
various things like 9/11 being a inside

676
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:11,580
job of some sort and the chemtrail

677
00:30:15,980 --> 00:30:13,370
people have had a few of those people on

678
00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:15,990
and they're very interesting to talk to

679
00:30:19,820 --> 00:30:18,030
and I think it's quite useful for other

680
00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:19,830
people to to view those and have some

681
00:30:27,170 --> 00:30:24,030
kind of perspective on it I want to talk

682
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:27,180
to you about a recent conspiracy theory

683
00:30:32,570 --> 00:30:29,970
is the Jeffrey Epstein conspiracy theory

684
00:30:35,810 --> 00:30:32,580
saying that he he was murdered and not

685
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:35,820
not so much that part of it the there

686
00:30:41,420 --> 00:30:37,770
are people who are accusing Jeffrey

687
00:30:44,210 --> 00:30:41,430
Epstein of various things that happened

688
00:30:47,270 --> 00:30:44,220
on his his Island with various people

689
00:30:49,070 --> 00:30:47,280
and you know there were going to be

690
00:30:51,530 --> 00:30:49,080
people who say that either they're

691
00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:51,540
making it up or they're missing mister

692
00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:54,480
remembering it and this is a very touchy

693
00:30:59,780 --> 00:30:57,510
subject for a lot of people and I know

694
00:31:02,000 --> 00:30:59,790
you have a lot of personal experience

695
00:31:05,510 --> 00:31:02,010
with with being attacked because of your

696
00:31:08,060 --> 00:31:05,520
work on

697
00:31:11,380 --> 00:31:08,070
recovered memory like a childhood sexual

698
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:11,390
abuse and things like that how do you

699
00:31:16,220 --> 00:31:14,610
delicately bring up the subject how do

700
00:31:20,330 --> 00:31:16,230
you get around this this kind of almost

701
00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:20,340
instant rejection of of any kind of

702
00:31:27,770 --> 00:31:23,310
suspicion of recovering memories well

703
00:31:30,380 --> 00:31:27,780
that that's a long question I'm not sure

704
00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:30,390
which part of it to answer well we'll

705
00:31:35,710 --> 00:31:32,640
start with Epstein I I have only

706
00:31:41,770 --> 00:31:35,720
newspaper knowledge about that case

707
00:31:44,150 --> 00:31:41,780
although I I am a you know a friendly

708
00:31:47,750 --> 00:31:44,160
friendly acquaintance with Alan

709
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:47,760
Dershowitz who himself has been accused

710
00:31:58,790 --> 00:31:51,330
of abuse in the context of the epstein

711
00:32:02,390 --> 00:31:58,800
world he's written an amazing op-ed

712
00:32:04,670 --> 00:32:02,400
piece about how he's innocent he how

713
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:04,680
hard it is to defend yourself when you

714
00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:07,110
when in this especially in this climate

715
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:11,910
and and I tend to believe him but again

716
00:32:19,790 --> 00:32:15,450
I have only newspaper that's just one

717
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:19,800
person's situation attached to Epstein I

718
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:25,050
get involved in lots of cases where the

719
00:32:33,020 --> 00:32:29,130
defense says it didn't happen somebody

720
00:32:36,830 --> 00:32:33,030
is making an accusation and usually I

721
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:36,840
talk about art again are there factors

722
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:39,690
in this situation that could be

723
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:43,770
responsible for creating a story if the

724
00:32:49,790 --> 00:32:47,250
story isn't true if it didn't happen and

725
00:32:54,140 --> 00:32:49,800
I'm looking to see was there suggestive

726
00:32:56,930 --> 00:32:54,150
psychotherapy did this person start

727
00:33:00,740 --> 00:32:56,940
reading books that suggested that

728
00:33:02,510 --> 00:33:00,750
certain things had happened to them did

729
00:33:04,670 --> 00:33:02,520
this person go to group therapy and

730
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:04,680
start to pick up details from other

731
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:06,570
people's stories that weren't there

732
00:33:13,310 --> 00:33:09,360
before did the story change from one

733
00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:13,320
point in time to another looking for

734
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:16,320
kind of red flags in in the particular

735
00:33:19,980 --> 00:33:18,010
situation

736
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:19,990
and then the other thing that I often do

737
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:23,200
in these court cases is there's you

738
00:33:28,799 --> 00:33:26,530
often a prosecution expert who in one

739
00:33:30,930 --> 00:33:28,809
way or another is saying I talked to the

740
00:33:34,460 --> 00:33:30,940
accuser and I believe our memories are

741
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:34,470
real well we have no business doing that

742
00:33:38,789 --> 00:33:36,850
because without independent

743
00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:38,799
corroboration you can't know whether

744
00:33:43,940 --> 00:33:40,809
you're dealing with a real memory or one

745
00:33:47,510 --> 00:33:43,950
that is a product of imagination

746
00:33:52,460 --> 00:33:47,520
suggestion or some other process so

747
00:33:57,169 --> 00:33:52,470
sometimes I'm involved in a as an expert

748
00:34:00,060 --> 00:33:57,179
in a challenge to an opposing experts

749
00:34:04,409 --> 00:34:00,070
misrepresentations of the science or Mis

750
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:04,419
statements of fact yeah must be very

751
00:34:10,109 --> 00:34:07,330
difficult that you know some some woman

752
00:34:13,609 --> 00:34:10,119
makes an accusation against someone

753
00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:13,619
based on what she says is her memory and

754
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:16,560
people are going to be defending her and

755
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:18,970
if you then say or perhaps you're

756
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:20,649
misremembering this or you know you're

757
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:22,210
kind of making things up to some degree

758
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:23,649
and you've misremembered it over the

759
00:34:25,859 --> 00:34:24,010
years

760
00:34:27,629 --> 00:34:25,869
then the defenders are going to say

761
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:27,639
that's some kind of attack against this

762
00:34:32,879 --> 00:34:30,490
person and then they're going to be

763
00:34:35,669 --> 00:34:32,889
personally angry at you for attacking

764
00:34:40,859 --> 00:34:35,679
this person how do you how do you deal

765
00:34:43,580 --> 00:34:40,869
with you know that happens and and you

766
00:34:47,369 --> 00:34:43,590
know I have to you know I try to say

767
00:34:52,379 --> 00:34:47,379
even if you're dealing with a person who

768
00:34:55,590 --> 00:34:52,389
did abuse someone even if there was an

769
00:34:57,660 --> 00:34:55,600
example of abuse it doesn't mean that a

770
00:35:00,060 --> 00:34:57,670
hundred other people get to walk up to

771
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:00,070
the ATM machine and say the word abuse

772
00:35:06,540 --> 00:35:02,050
and money should spew out you have to

773
00:35:10,620 --> 00:35:06,550
look at all of these situations to to

774
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:10,630
see whether you're dealing with an

775
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:12,490
authentic memory or one that is a

776
00:35:17,370 --> 00:35:14,650
product of some other or process but

777
00:35:21,570 --> 00:35:17,380
I'll tell you I know it's not a

778
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:21,580
particularly popular thing that I do

779
00:35:28,830 --> 00:35:25,650
study false memories or to worry about

780
00:35:31,590 --> 00:35:28,840
false accusations right right now we're

781
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:31,600
in a climate that people people

782
00:35:37,590 --> 00:35:33,310
really want to talk to you about false

783
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:37,600
accusations yeah there's the whole thing

784
00:35:45,030 --> 00:35:40,090
about false memories is relatively new

785
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:45,040
in and in history and and that I

786
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:47,710
remember my mother was a social worker

787
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:51,250
in the 1970's and early 80's and she

788
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:54,690
worked with children who were being

789
00:35:58,770 --> 00:35:56,650
abused and has to be removed from

790
00:36:00,600 --> 00:35:58,780
families and to be like get sent to

791
00:36:01,890 --> 00:36:00,610
foster families so she dealt with that

792
00:36:05,370 --> 00:36:01,900
type of thing and it was around that

793
00:36:09,450 --> 00:36:05,380
time that we had the satanic ritual

794
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:09,460
abuse scare where people in the media

795
00:36:14,420 --> 00:36:12,610
were all getting up in arms about this

796
00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:14,430
the idea that there was this ongoing

797
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:18,190
huge amount of satanic ritual abuse and

798
00:36:25,350 --> 00:36:23,280
the evidence for that was largely was it

799
00:36:29,090 --> 00:36:25,360
repressed memories and recovered

800
00:36:32,730 --> 00:36:29,100
memories because these were kitties

801
00:36:36,330 --> 00:36:32,740
those were those were due to highly

802
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:36,340
suggest them coercive interviews of

803
00:36:42,510 --> 00:36:39,010
those little kids so it wasn't so much

804
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:42,520
the days of the McMartin case and in the

805
00:36:48,450 --> 00:36:46,240
early 80s in California and then many

806
00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:48,460
other cities across the United States

807
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:50,110
and other places had their own little

808
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:54,130
mini McMartin and daycare workers were

809
00:36:59,730 --> 00:36:58,000
being thrown in jail and it was you know

810
00:37:01,850 --> 00:36:59,740
many of those people have now been freed

811
00:37:05,370 --> 00:37:01,860
and it's there's a recognition of the

812
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:05,380
you know that the the abuse of memory

813
00:37:09,390 --> 00:37:07,090
was on the part of the people doing the

814
00:37:12,330 --> 00:37:09,400
interviewing yeah yeah my mother was a

815
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:12,340
social worker in in the UK and we had

816
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:14,320
the same thing over there in the UK with

817
00:37:17,910 --> 00:37:16,450
the different flavour but essentially

818
00:37:20,670 --> 00:37:17,920
the same thing

819
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:20,680
so with those were children I guess it

820
00:37:23,010 --> 00:37:21,610
must be very very different with

821
00:37:25,020 --> 00:37:23,020
children because they don't really have

822
00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:25,030
the brains are very very different and

823
00:37:29,610 --> 00:37:27,670
they don't really have the same I guess

824
00:37:32,460 --> 00:37:29,620
even the same concept of memory as

825
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:32,470
adults have well you can you can plant

826
00:37:38,670 --> 00:37:35,410
false beliefs in the minds of young

827
00:37:40,530 --> 00:37:38,680
children and it's fairly easy to do

828
00:37:42,540 --> 00:37:40,540
there's their studies out there some of

829
00:37:43,730 --> 00:37:42,550
which I've participated in where

830
00:37:46,190 --> 00:37:43,740
children have been

831
00:37:48,140 --> 00:37:46,200
led to believe and remember that they

832
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:48,150
got their hand caught in a mousetrap and

833
00:37:52,579 --> 00:37:49,680
they had to go to a hospital to get the

834
00:37:54,530 --> 00:37:52,589
mousetrap removed very detailed

835
00:37:59,859 --> 00:37:54,540
recollection of this thing that was just

836
00:38:03,470 --> 00:37:59,869
suggested to them yeah I was just

837
00:38:07,450 --> 00:38:03,480
reminded of something else that I did

838
00:38:12,770 --> 00:38:07,460
was I once posted on a conspiracy forum

839
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:12,780
I think at one of your talks and I asked

840
00:38:16,849 --> 00:38:14,970
people what they thought of your talk

841
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:16,859
and it was just it was just a fairly

842
00:38:19,970 --> 00:38:17,730
straightforward one

843
00:38:21,650 --> 00:38:19,980
not so much about the the recovered

844
00:38:24,250 --> 00:38:21,660
memory of childhood abuse it was just

845
00:38:27,710 --> 00:38:24,260
about the malleability of memory and

846
00:38:31,130 --> 00:38:27,720
they were overwhelmingly very very angry

847
00:38:33,050 --> 00:38:31,140
at me for posting this this talk and I

848
00:38:35,839 --> 00:38:33,060
think they they really genuinely thought

849
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:35,849
that I was trying to brainwash them just

850
00:38:42,349 --> 00:38:39,810
by posting a video of yours if you had

851
00:38:46,730 --> 00:38:42,359
much interaction with more extreme

852
00:38:49,070 --> 00:38:46,740
conspiracy theorists I'm not sure what

853
00:38:52,940 --> 00:38:49,080
what you mean by more extreme because

854
00:38:56,030 --> 00:38:52,950
mostly I live in this world of of people

855
00:38:59,450 --> 00:38:56,040
thinking they have recovered repressed

856
00:39:01,400 --> 00:38:59,460
memories of years of brutalization that

857
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:01,410
were allegedly buried into the

858
00:39:07,579 --> 00:39:04,530
unconscious and and so you know mostly

859
00:39:10,010 --> 00:39:07,589
I'm thinking about that situation yeah

860
00:39:11,150 --> 00:39:10,020
yeah I think if I perhaps deal with

861
00:39:14,780 --> 00:39:11,160
people who are a little bit more a

862
00:39:16,670 --> 00:39:14,790
little bit more mmm inventive in their

863
00:39:19,570 --> 00:39:16,680
they're recovering memories wasn't very

864
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:19,580
very simple one though you have to say

865
00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:22,530
if they remember for example you know

866
00:39:30,260 --> 00:39:26,190
being abducted by an alien or at least

867
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:30,270
they're not suing et like they're suing

868
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:32,640
their parents and their other relatives

869
00:39:38,450 --> 00:39:34,490
and their former neighbors and whatever

870
00:39:42,170 --> 00:39:38,460
yeah so it doesn't create that level of

871
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:42,180
havoc in the community yeah UFOs I think

872
00:39:46,250 --> 00:39:44,400
it relatively harmless some of them yeah

873
00:39:47,270 --> 00:39:46,260
some of the other conspiracy theories

874
00:39:48,530 --> 00:39:47,280
are a bit more harmful like the

875
00:39:50,089 --> 00:39:48,540
chemtrails thing people think that

876
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:50,099
they're being poisoned and so they start

877
00:39:54,770 --> 00:39:51,930
taking these remedies for chemtrail

878
00:39:56,750 --> 00:39:54,780
poisoning one thing with the chemtrails

879
00:39:57,750 --> 00:39:56,760
which was interesting is that people

880
00:40:01,410 --> 00:39:57,760
stayed

881
00:40:04,290 --> 00:40:01,420
the sky was a lot more blue in the past

882
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:04,300
and I did a little bit of research into

883
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:06,970
this and I saw some studies where they

884
00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:09,010
said that people remember color more

885
00:40:14,670 --> 00:40:12,550
vividly as time goes by if it's if they

886
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:14,680
try to recall a color it actually gets

887
00:40:18,810 --> 00:40:16,570
bluer and bluer with time is that

888
00:40:20,610 --> 00:40:18,820
something you've come across never I

889
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:20,620
haven't seen that fine that kind of

890
00:40:24,570 --> 00:40:22,930
interesting but I'd like to see the

891
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:24,580
study and know whether it was replicated

892
00:40:29,940 --> 00:40:28,330
and yes I should also send it to you

893
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:29,950
because it was a fascinating thing it

894
00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:32,170
and it was specifically with blue as

895
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:34,720
well blue is when the colors that got

896
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:37,330
more vibrant with time and that you know

897
00:40:42,020 --> 00:40:40,000
people's actually there's actually an

898
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:42,030
explanation for why people remember this

899
00:40:48,750 --> 00:40:44,890
and another thing I don't if you've

900
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:48,760
heard of the the Mandela effect yes yeah

901
00:40:55,290 --> 00:40:51,280
what do you think is what kind of

902
00:40:57,300 --> 00:40:55,300
psychological factors are behind that so

903
00:40:59,970 --> 00:40:57,310
I'm assuming you you're referring to the

904
00:41:02,310 --> 00:40:59,980
idea that many people have a belief like

905
00:41:05,250 --> 00:41:02,320
that Mandela died in prison or something

906
00:41:09,620 --> 00:41:05,260
and in fact he didn't die until much

907
00:41:13,470 --> 00:41:09,630
later when he was out of prison and

908
00:41:16,170 --> 00:41:13,480
these well we could make a distinction

909
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:16,180
between a belief about the world a

910
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:20,050
belief and a memory for your own

911
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:23,890
personal experience hmm I study people's

912
00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:25,690
memories for their own personal

913
00:41:29,820 --> 00:41:27,310
experience and how you can contaminate

914
00:41:32,820 --> 00:41:29,830
and distort them I think it would be

915
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:32,830
even easier to distort a belief about

916
00:41:37,830 --> 00:41:35,290
the world you just need some highly

917
00:41:41,250 --> 00:41:37,840
credible people to utter the the belief

918
00:41:43,770 --> 00:41:41,260
and utter it with confidence and give a

919
00:41:46,140 --> 00:41:43,780
lot of detail to it and others others

920
00:41:49,740 --> 00:41:46,150
will follow and you don't have your own

921
00:41:53,940 --> 00:41:49,750
personal experience to but against it

922
00:41:57,090 --> 00:41:53,950
and to to challenge it so the idea that

923
00:42:00,570 --> 00:41:57,100
somebody could utter the belief and talk

924
00:42:04,350 --> 00:42:00,580
about it convince other people oh yeah

925
00:42:05,460 --> 00:42:04,360
doesn't seem too surprising and that's

926
00:42:07,740 --> 00:42:05,470
what's very much what I see with

927
00:42:10,620 --> 00:42:07,750
conspiracy theorists it's people are

928
00:42:13,289 --> 00:42:10,630
kind of having a belief implanted in the

929
00:42:14,789 --> 00:42:13,299
their brains and they think that it's

930
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:14,799
backed with evidence but it's because

931
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:16,210
they've only seen like this one set of

932
00:42:20,729 --> 00:42:19,089
evidence that people have presented them

933
00:42:22,829 --> 00:42:20,739
and I guess in a way it's kind of

934
00:42:24,420 --> 00:42:22,839
similar to implanting a memory

935
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:24,430
implanting a belief I never really

936
00:42:27,630 --> 00:42:25,450
thought about before

937
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:27,640
that's very interesting you know the

938
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:29,890
Mandela effect people remember all kinds

939
00:42:36,359 --> 00:42:32,650
of strange things that they think they

940
00:42:39,089 --> 00:42:36,369
remember seeing but it weren't actually

941
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:39,099
true and then from that they get the

942
00:42:42,210 --> 00:42:40,690
idea that there's some kind of the

943
00:42:43,859 --> 00:42:42,220
living in some kind of alternate reality

944
00:42:48,059 --> 00:42:43,869
or some kind of computer matrix or

945
00:42:53,579 --> 00:42:48,069
something yes like following on from

946
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:53,589
that like evolutionary reasons why

947
00:42:57,690 --> 00:42:55,690
people do these things these little

948
00:43:01,170 --> 00:42:57,700
little tricks of the of the memory

949
00:43:04,049 --> 00:43:01,180
they're like reasons why that the people

950
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:04,059
here have evolved to do it and there are

951
00:43:08,729 --> 00:43:05,729
ways we can actually use that

952
00:43:12,660 --> 00:43:08,739
evolutionary basis of memory to help

953
00:43:14,969 --> 00:43:12,670
help fix it I I could say something

954
00:43:17,370 --> 00:43:14,979
about that because because psychologists

955
00:43:20,009 --> 00:43:17,380
who study memory distortion are often

956
00:43:21,930 --> 00:43:20,019
asked you know why would we be created

957
00:43:23,759 --> 00:43:21,940
this way why would God or Darwin

958
00:43:27,029 --> 00:43:23,769
whatever your theory is there have

959
00:43:31,589 --> 00:43:27,039
created our memories to be susceptible

960
00:43:34,469 --> 00:43:31,599
to contamination and and and change and

961
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:34,479
some of the answers that psychologists

962
00:43:40,890 --> 00:43:37,690
have given go a lot like this well first

963
00:43:44,309 --> 00:43:40,900
of all this malleable system means that

964
00:43:47,759 --> 00:43:44,319
if a spontaneous error enters your

965
00:43:50,370 --> 00:43:47,769
memory system you can update with

966
00:43:52,529 --> 00:43:50,380
accurate information when you learn it's

967
00:43:54,269 --> 00:43:52,539
wrong and this is what's right you can

968
00:43:59,099 --> 00:43:54,279
update your memory and that updating

969
00:44:02,370 --> 00:43:59,109
ability would be valuable other people

970
00:44:05,969 --> 00:44:02,380
have said that sometimes a distorted

971
00:44:08,789 --> 00:44:05,979
memory actually is good for you I mean

972
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:08,799
we have for example people in general

973
00:44:13,589 --> 00:44:11,680
believe that they got grades that were

974
00:44:16,229 --> 00:44:13,599
better than they really did or they gave

975
00:44:17,999 --> 00:44:16,239
more to charity than they really did or

976
00:44:19,950 --> 00:44:18,009
their kids walked and talked in an

977
00:44:22,019 --> 00:44:19,960
earlier age and then they really did or

978
00:44:24,270 --> 00:44:22,029
they voted in elections that they didn't

979
00:44:26,220 --> 00:44:24,280
vote in we have these press

980
00:44:30,330 --> 00:44:26,230
these enhancing memory distortions that

981
00:44:32,010 --> 00:44:30,340
are very common why they allow us to

982
00:44:34,460 --> 00:44:32,020
feel a little better about ourselves

983
00:44:37,590 --> 00:44:34,470
maybe make us a little happier and

984
00:44:40,530 --> 00:44:37,600
interestingly / depressed people don't

985
00:44:43,710 --> 00:44:40,540
do that as much so maybe this malleable

986
00:44:48,210 --> 00:44:43,720
system is one then has this kind of

987
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:48,220
benefit and then the last point and this

988
00:44:52,650 --> 00:44:49,690
is a point that has really been

989
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:52,660
developed by Dan Schachter a memory

990
00:45:00,570 --> 00:44:57,010
scientists also teaching at Harvard the

991
00:45:03,180 --> 00:45:00,580
same system that's involved in memory is

992
00:45:06,650 --> 00:45:03,190
also involved the same brain structures

993
00:45:09,210 --> 00:45:06,660
and so on in anticipating the future or

994
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:09,220
anticipating different possible futures

995
00:45:14,790 --> 00:45:12,490
and you do want flexibility there to be

996
00:45:18,870 --> 00:45:14,800
able to imagine different possible

997
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:18,880
futures and plan for things that could

998
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:21,970
happen and this flexible system that

999
00:45:27,380 --> 00:45:23,850
works in the past and in the future

1000
00:45:31,890 --> 00:45:27,390
might be a system that works well for

1001
00:45:33,900 --> 00:45:31,900
good planning for the future so I'm just

1002
00:45:37,140 --> 00:45:33,910
telling you some of the ways that I and

1003
00:45:40,110 --> 00:45:37,150
others have talked about why would we be

1004
00:45:42,090 --> 00:45:40,120
created with a memory though that works

1005
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:42,100
like this yeah that's fascinating

1006
00:45:45,750 --> 00:45:43,930
because a lot of what you were saying

1007
00:45:48,980 --> 00:45:45,760
that kind of resonated with what I've

1008
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:48,990
read about people forming false beliefs

1009
00:45:53,490 --> 00:45:51,370
especially in the conspiracy community

1010
00:45:54,990 --> 00:45:53,500
and like they they form a false belief

1011
00:45:58,440 --> 00:45:55,000
and in a way it makes them feel better

1012
00:46:00,390 --> 00:45:58,450
about themselves and the people form

1013
00:46:03,390 --> 00:46:00,400
false memories or they exaggerate their

1014
00:46:06,060 --> 00:46:03,400
memories for similar reasons it's almost

1015
00:46:08,250 --> 00:46:06,070
kind of a little brain chemistry thing

1016
00:46:10,170 --> 00:46:08,260
like a little dopamine type type hit if

1017
00:46:12,090 --> 00:46:10,180
you get some kind of you know good

1018
00:46:13,860 --> 00:46:12,100
memory about yourself or you have formed

1019
00:46:17,250 --> 00:46:13,870
some belief that makes makes you feel

1020
00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:17,260
better about yourself I think yes it's

1021
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:18,160
really interesting I think there are a

1022
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:19,690
lot of other parallels that I'm gonna

1023
00:46:24,450 --> 00:46:22,330
have to look into this more the

1024
00:46:27,470 --> 00:46:24,460
parallels between the malleability and

1025
00:46:30,540 --> 00:46:27,480
memory and the malleability of belief

1026
00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:30,550
you know it can affect base belief

1027
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:33,310
rather than memory based belief very

1028
00:46:36,510 --> 00:46:34,570
interesting

1029
00:46:38,910 --> 00:46:36,520
the the you know the thing to keep in

1030
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:38,920
mind is look for the benefit because I

1031
00:46:43,380 --> 00:46:40,330
am in my little world

1032
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:43,390
I've had people I've had people say who

1033
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:44,890
would ever want to make up that they

1034
00:46:48,210 --> 00:46:46,690
were abused by their father if they

1035
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:48,220
weren't who would ever want to believe

1036
00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:49,570
something so awful

1037
00:46:54,060 --> 00:46:52,240
there'd be no good reason why you would

1038
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:54,070
want to well maybe there is a good

1039
00:46:58,710 --> 00:46:56,770
reason and the good reason is that you

1040
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:58,720
now have an explanation for your

1041
00:47:02,820 --> 00:47:00,400
problems you don't have to you know you

1042
00:47:05,610 --> 00:47:02,830
consider that you're a bad person or

1043
00:47:07,770 --> 00:47:05,620
you're a crazy person your problems are

1044
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:07,780
now due to the fact that you were abused

1045
00:47:13,290 --> 00:47:10,090
you often get a lot of empathy and

1046
00:47:17,430 --> 00:47:13,300
sympathy and a new community to connect

1047
00:47:19,710 --> 00:47:17,440
with for these beliefs look for the

1048
00:47:21,870 --> 00:47:19,720
benefit yeah and I see the community

1049
00:47:23,730 --> 00:47:21,880
aspect of it and the being listens to

1050
00:47:25,230 --> 00:47:23,740
aspect of it and in conspiracy theories

1051
00:47:27,870 --> 00:47:25,240
as well so there's definitely crossover

1052
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:27,880
there I asked on Twitter if people any

1053
00:47:31,710 --> 00:47:30,160
any questions for you you know I've got

1054
00:47:34,140 --> 00:47:31,720
a couple of interesting ones somebody

1055
00:47:35,870 --> 00:47:34,150
asked yeah what are your thoughts on how

1056
00:47:38,250 --> 00:47:35,880
imagery and information in pop culture

1057
00:47:40,260 --> 00:47:38,260
feed into the image bank of false

1058
00:47:42,650 --> 00:47:40,270
memories so I suppose that's like how

1059
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:42,660
things that are repeated in pop culture

1060
00:47:49,710 --> 00:47:45,490
affects people's memories of other

1061
00:47:51,390 --> 00:47:49,720
things well this is this is so cool that

1062
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:51,400
you could be talking to me and then

1063
00:47:56,220 --> 00:47:53,770
someone else can pop in with a Twitter

1064
00:48:02,130 --> 00:47:56,230
question I I just this is so 21st

1065
00:48:05,250 --> 00:48:02,140
century I anyhow I'm enjoying this pop

1066
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:05,260
culture and social media completely play

1067
00:48:11,610 --> 00:48:08,290
a role in all this hmm you know the the

1068
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:11,620
aliens that are doing the abducting they

1069
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:14,650
tend to look similar and that's because

1070
00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:16,930
you know the media presentation of

1071
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:20,110
aliens is is where people are getting

1072
00:48:27,660 --> 00:48:24,370
their their imagery it's from from kind

1073
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:27,670
of a common source that's out there yeah

1074
00:48:32,370 --> 00:48:29,610
somebody asked their a related question

1075
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:32,380
what other societally common memory

1076
00:48:36,420 --> 00:48:34,810
errors are there from history or from

1077
00:48:39,030 --> 00:48:36,430
the modern day and I think that's about

1078
00:48:40,830 --> 00:48:39,040
like types of memory areas that are

1079
00:48:43,980 --> 00:48:40,840
common across different societies around

1080
00:48:46,550 --> 00:48:43,990
the world are the memory errors similar

1081
00:48:48,329 --> 00:48:46,560
across societies or other societal

1082
00:48:50,700 --> 00:48:48,339
specific differences in

1083
00:48:52,650 --> 00:48:50,710
Hera's well again if I could just talk

1084
00:48:56,039 --> 00:48:52,660
about the world I know about that and

1085
00:48:59,339 --> 00:48:56,049
these are the thousands of people who

1086
00:49:03,839 --> 00:48:59,349
are claiming that they have been falsely

1087
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:03,849
accused based on a massive repression

1088
00:49:09,390 --> 00:49:06,130
and supposing recovery of horrible

1089
00:49:12,900 --> 00:49:09,400
brutalization this this phenomenon may

1090
00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:12,910
have started in North America but it got

1091
00:49:19,950 --> 00:49:17,200
exported to Europe England all over

1092
00:49:23,459 --> 00:49:19,960
Scandinavia other parts of Europe

1093
00:49:26,309 --> 00:49:23,469
Australia New Zealand and so you began

1094
00:49:29,459 --> 00:49:26,319
to see collections of similar kinds of

1095
00:49:32,479 --> 00:49:29,469
things going on psychotherapist who were

1096
00:49:35,190 --> 00:49:32,489
using highly suggestive procedures

1097
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:35,200
getting people to remember things making

1098
00:49:41,370 --> 00:49:38,890
accusations it didn't seem to be

1099
00:49:46,890 --> 00:49:41,380
happening so much in Asian cultures and

1100
00:49:50,249 --> 00:49:46,900
and it's just an observation I'm not

1101
00:49:54,749 --> 00:49:50,259
quite sure why but you you tended to see

1102
00:49:57,209 --> 00:49:54,759
this cropping up more in in the the

1103
00:50:00,089 --> 00:49:57,219
countries that I've mentioned yeah that

1104
00:50:03,180 --> 00:50:00,099
reminds me of another culture bowel

1105
00:50:05,759 --> 00:50:03,190
syndrome which was a whiplash someone

1106
00:50:08,069 --> 00:50:05,769
said that whiplash injuries don't happen

1107
00:50:10,229 --> 00:50:08,079
in countries where you can't sue the

1108
00:50:11,579 --> 00:50:10,239
person who hit you from behind in a car

1109
00:50:13,170 --> 00:50:11,589
like people get these whiplash injuries

1110
00:50:16,319 --> 00:50:13,180
when someone hits them from behind in a

1111
00:50:18,930 --> 00:50:16,329
car and there are about like 20 times

1112
00:50:20,459 --> 00:50:18,940
more common in the United States than

1113
00:50:22,380 --> 00:50:20,469
they are in Japan even though the

1114
00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:22,390
accident rate is it's relatively similar

1115
00:50:27,209 --> 00:50:25,049
and I think it's just simply because

1116
00:50:28,799 --> 00:50:27,219
people are being kind of infected with

1117
00:50:30,569 --> 00:50:28,809
this idea this if you get hit from

1118
00:50:32,729 --> 00:50:30,579
behind in your car you get you get some

1119
00:50:35,849 --> 00:50:32,739
kind of whiplash injury and I suppose

1120
00:50:38,009 --> 00:50:35,859
you can kind of think of the idea of

1121
00:50:40,589 --> 00:50:38,019
recovered memory as being a little

1122
00:50:42,509 --> 00:50:40,599
little mimetic virus spreading around

1123
00:50:44,579 --> 00:50:42,519
the world it kind of started here and it

1124
00:50:47,219 --> 00:50:44,589
can have spread to to other countries

1125
00:50:49,170 --> 00:50:47,229
because people's brains are similar yes

1126
00:50:51,779 --> 00:50:49,180
I have thought about it that way that

1127
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:51,789
you know the way Europe got infected

1128
00:50:57,749 --> 00:50:55,650
is that American North American

1129
00:51:00,509 --> 00:50:57,759
psychologists and psychiatrists were

1130
00:51:02,250 --> 00:51:00,519
invited to go over and give speeches and

1131
00:51:05,630 --> 00:51:02,260
they started speaking about

1132
00:51:08,309 --> 00:51:05,640
repressed memories satanic ritual abuse

1133
00:51:10,589 --> 00:51:08,319
multiple personality disorder which is

1134
00:51:12,870 --> 00:51:10,599
an alcohol to associate of identity

1135
00:51:15,900 --> 00:51:12,880
disorder and then you began to see these

1136
00:51:18,329 --> 00:51:15,910
things growing a little seed is planted

1137
00:51:21,450 --> 00:51:18,339
and it then grows in another part of

1138
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:21,460
part of the world yeah another quick

1139
00:51:26,730 --> 00:51:24,970
question from Twitter as other objective

1140
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:26,740
ways to distinguish memories of real

1141
00:51:35,069 --> 00:51:31,450
world events from false memories oh well

1142
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:35,079
I'm sorry to disappoint people but as at

1143
00:51:40,079 --> 00:51:37,930
the end of my TED talk I left the

1144
00:51:42,359 --> 00:51:40,089
audience with the one take-home message

1145
00:51:43,769 --> 00:51:42,369
that I wanted to leave people which is

1146
00:51:46,769 --> 00:51:43,779
just because somebody tells you

1147
00:51:49,470 --> 00:51:46,779
something with a lot of detail they say

1148
00:51:51,390 --> 00:51:49,480
it with a lot of confidence even if they

1149
00:51:53,460 --> 00:51:51,400
show a lot of emotion when they tell the

1150
00:51:55,529 --> 00:51:53,470
story it doesn't mean it really happened

1151
00:51:59,400 --> 00:51:55,539
be false memories have these same

1152
00:52:02,730 --> 00:51:59,410
characteristics and you can't do a brain

1153
00:52:04,980 --> 00:52:02,740
scan or brain scans you know the false

1154
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:04,990
memories look like the true ones mm-hmm

1155
00:52:10,710 --> 00:52:08,170
emotional wreck or physiological of

1156
00:52:12,599 --> 00:52:10,720
recordings of emotional arousal looks

1157
00:52:16,140 --> 00:52:12,609
similar for the false memories and the

1158
00:52:18,599 --> 00:52:16,150
true ones so you need independent

1159
00:52:21,660 --> 00:52:18,609
corroboration and it really has to be

1160
00:52:22,980 --> 00:52:21,670
independent corroboration one last

1161
00:52:25,140 --> 00:52:22,990
question from Twitter which is actually

1162
00:52:27,599 --> 00:52:25,150
something I'm very interested in is as

1163
00:52:30,509 --> 00:52:27,609
the the notion of memory changed with

1164
00:52:32,670 --> 00:52:30,519
modernity like has historically people's

1165
00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:32,680
ideas about what memory is and how

1166
00:52:37,589 --> 00:52:35,710
reliable it is has that changed over

1167
00:52:39,269 --> 00:52:37,599
time were people more or less trusting

1168
00:52:41,519 --> 00:52:39,279
of their memories back in the Middle

1169
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:41,529
Ages so I don't know about the Middle

1170
00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:44,410
Ages but over time people have used

1171
00:52:50,970 --> 00:52:48,160
different metaphors to to to talk about

1172
00:52:54,539 --> 00:52:50,980
memory I mean so that you know they may

1173
00:52:57,259 --> 00:52:54,549
have likened it to a videotape recording

1174
00:53:00,990 --> 00:52:57,269
and at some point and then a computer

1175
00:53:03,450 --> 00:53:01,000
and you know what in some recent

1176
00:53:06,450 --> 00:53:03,460
presentation I likened it to a Wikipedia

1177
00:53:08,730 --> 00:53:06,460
page because you could go in there and

1178
00:53:11,009 --> 00:53:08,740
edit it but other people can too

1179
00:53:12,539 --> 00:53:11,019
yeah it's interesting that they in the

1180
00:53:14,460 --> 00:53:12,549
olden days people didn't have these

1181
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:14,470
these analogies that they could they

1182
00:53:17,500 --> 00:53:15,410
could make so

1183
00:53:20,650 --> 00:53:17,510
now we think of memory as being like a

1184
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:20,660
video recorder here the the common idea

1185
00:53:26,289 --> 00:53:22,970
of a visual memory or an auditory memory

1186
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:26,299
is that a recording but what would

1187
00:53:31,349 --> 00:53:28,490
people have thought of memory being

1188
00:53:34,329 --> 00:53:31,359
analogous to back before tape recorders

1189
00:53:36,010 --> 00:53:34,339
I'd have to go back and it may be here

1190
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:36,020
back in the with the early philosophers

1191
00:53:40,240 --> 00:53:38,240
and I'm not sure I really got a good

1192
00:53:43,059 --> 00:53:40,250
grade undergraduate when I took

1193
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:43,069
philosophy it was too abstract for me

1194
00:53:47,410 --> 00:53:45,170
yeah it's interesting about interesting

1195
00:53:50,770 --> 00:53:47,420
well thank you very much for this very

1196
00:53:54,819 --> 00:53:50,780
interesting conversation what are you

1197
00:53:57,099 --> 00:53:54,829
working on naira well let's see we just

1198
00:54:00,549 --> 00:53:57,109
published a paper on the malleability of

1199
00:54:02,500 --> 00:54:00,559
memory for symptoms this might relate to

1200
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:02,510
your with the whiplash example yeah

1201
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:04,250
that's real just put people through a

1202
00:54:08,799 --> 00:54:06,530
painful experience for example

1203
00:54:11,470 --> 00:54:08,809
the painful experience we use is called

1204
00:54:14,140 --> 00:54:11,480
the cold pressor task where you stick

1205
00:54:16,510 --> 00:54:14,150
your hand into ice-cold water for 90

1206
00:54:18,819 --> 00:54:16,520
seconds it's painful you rate your pain

1207
00:54:21,789 --> 00:54:18,829
on a 100-point scale let's say you gave

1208
00:54:24,010 --> 00:54:21,799
it an 80 later on I come back to you and

1209
00:54:26,529 --> 00:54:24,020
I say now you know last week when you

1210
00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:26,539
did this and you told us that the pain

1211
00:54:32,950 --> 00:54:30,319
was 260 on a 100-point scale why did you

1212
00:54:35,349 --> 00:54:32,960
read it that way what that does is

1213
00:54:38,650 --> 00:54:35,359
people remember their pain as less than

1214
00:54:40,900 --> 00:54:38,660
it actually was and this is an example

1215
00:54:45,309 --> 00:54:40,910
of how even memory for symptoms is

1216
00:54:48,059 --> 00:54:45,319
malleable so I see this connecting to

1217
00:54:50,849 --> 00:54:48,069
your whiplash example if somebody is

1218
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:50,859
attaching a label to an ambiguous

1219
00:54:55,870 --> 00:54:53,210
whatever you or you're feeling in your

1220
00:54:57,970 --> 00:54:55,880
neck and says whiplash it can maybe

1221
00:55:01,930 --> 00:54:57,980
start to hurt more than it would

1222
00:55:03,819 --> 00:55:01,940
otherwise well that's I suppose one of

1223
00:55:06,490 --> 00:55:03,829
one of the differences of what's

1224
00:55:10,510 --> 00:55:06,500
happening when you have get hit from

1225
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:10,520
behind in the United States versus say

1226
00:55:14,890 --> 00:55:12,770
in another country yeah that's very

1227
00:55:19,539 --> 00:55:14,900
interesting other ways you can use

1228
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:19,549
things like that as therapy of reducing

1229
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:21,490
the severity of some of these symptoms

1230
00:55:27,910 --> 00:55:25,970
potentially yes potentially if more work

1231
00:55:29,110 --> 00:55:27,920
is done on this idea of the malleability

1232
00:55:31,810 --> 00:55:29,120
of symptoms

1233
00:55:36,060 --> 00:55:31,820
I see you maybe you can find a way to

1234
00:55:39,660 --> 00:55:36,070
essentially remind people even falsely

1235
00:55:43,870 --> 00:55:39,670
that the experience wasn't as bad as

1236
00:55:48,580 --> 00:55:43,880
perhaps it really was and maybe they

1237
00:55:51,130 --> 00:55:48,590
have a softer memory about it now a lot

1238
00:55:54,070 --> 00:55:51,140
of people might object to that kind of

1239
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:54,080
tampering with with your memory even

1240
00:55:57,820 --> 00:55:55,970
when I suggested that you could plan a

1241
00:55:59,380 --> 00:55:57,830
false memory that you got sick eating a

1242
00:56:00,940 --> 00:55:59,390
fattening food and people don't want to

1243
00:56:02,860 --> 00:56:00,950
eat the food as much and I thought this

1244
00:56:05,650 --> 00:56:02,870
week this could be on we could be on the

1245
00:56:07,870 --> 00:56:05,660
brink of a new dieting technique here it

1246
00:56:11,350 --> 00:56:07,880
still bothered people yeah I don't like

1247
00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:11,360
the idea of brainwashing whose problems

1248
00:56:16,450 --> 00:56:14,480
by messing with their mind yeah people

1249
00:56:18,490 --> 00:56:16,460
are very very touchy Avera about their

1250
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:18,500
minds it's such a personal thing that's

1251
00:56:22,780 --> 00:56:21,290
I think he just kind of freaks people

1252
00:56:24,820 --> 00:56:22,790
out in a way just to think that they

1253
00:56:28,900 --> 00:56:24,830
might not be in control of everything

1254
00:56:31,300 --> 00:56:28,910
that's going on in their brains I saw in

1255
00:56:34,390 --> 00:56:31,310
an interview you did with Kerry poppy

1256
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:34,400
for CSI a couple of years ago that

1257
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:36,050
you're working on an autobiography is

1258
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:39,410
that true well the annual review of

1259
00:56:47,020 --> 00:56:44,410
psychology has a new feature where

1260
00:56:50,380 --> 00:56:47,030
they're getting autobiographies ten

1261
00:56:54,010 --> 00:56:50,390
thousand word autobiographies so I I did

1262
00:56:56,850 --> 00:56:54,020
write a autobiography okay you know a

1263
00:57:01,330 --> 00:56:56,860
couple years ago for the annual review

1264
00:57:04,570 --> 00:57:01,340
and I did an I did one for a book a book

1265
00:57:06,970 --> 00:57:04,580
chapter ten years ago I think both of

1266
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:06,980
those are posted on my University of

1267
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:09,890
california-irvine website so people who

1268
00:57:14,860 --> 00:57:12,050
might want to read them help yourself

1269
00:57:16,420 --> 00:57:14,870
great if you want to know I was looking

1270
00:57:18,190 --> 00:57:16,430
for it on Wikipedia I thought it was

1271
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:18,200
going to be a hero to biographical book

1272
00:57:23,770 --> 00:57:22,010
no Wikipedia on on Amazon but nothing

1273
00:57:25,690 --> 00:57:23,780
was there but yeah I'd be very

1274
00:57:28,030 --> 00:57:25,700
interesting I will check it out

1275
00:57:31,870 --> 00:57:28,040
all right well is anything else that

1276
00:57:35,620 --> 00:57:31,880
you'd like to finish with no I think but

1277
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:35,630
I I would say you know even better than

1278
00:57:42,579 --> 00:57:39,290
reading the autobiography slate.com did

1279
00:57:44,349 --> 00:57:42,589
a long article called the memory doctor

1280
00:57:46,299 --> 00:57:44,359
the author of that articles he's found

1281
00:57:49,359 --> 00:57:46,309
about maybe a year researching and

1282
00:57:53,700 --> 00:57:49,369
writing it it's a huge article the

1283
00:57:57,489 --> 00:57:53,710
memory doctor and it takes you through

1284
00:58:01,299 --> 00:57:57,499
40 years of my life and research and

1285
00:58:03,700 --> 00:58:01,309
thinking and and applications and what

1286
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:03,710
is so beautiful about will solitons

1287
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:06,890
article is he won a prize for this

1288
00:58:14,140 --> 00:58:10,160
article the best online reporting in

1289
00:58:16,390 --> 00:58:14,150
science for the year it came out so it

1290
00:58:19,779 --> 00:58:16,400
got vetted for accuracy it got vetted

1291
00:58:22,299 --> 00:58:19,789
for his writing and he won this this big

1292
00:58:24,719 --> 00:58:22,309
prize so usually I say if you want to

1293
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:24,729
read something I and I have a link to

1294
00:58:30,969 --> 00:58:28,690
solitons article also on my UCI website

1295
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:30,979
yeah that's great I will put a link to

1296
00:58:36,549 --> 00:58:32,930
it in the show notes for this podcast

1297
00:58:39,309 --> 00:58:36,559
have you said okay well once again we're

1298
00:58:40,749 --> 00:58:39,319
coming up on an hour and this has been a

1299
00:58:44,019 --> 00:58:40,759
very very interesting conversation

1300
00:58:45,549 --> 00:58:44,029
giving me a lot to think about and I'd